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r obhR |
#21 |
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Anyway, I'm more interested in your thoughts on the points made and your own opinion about how the world works than I am in your opinion of us having
opinions.
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Mattox333 |
#22 |
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I don't know how much I can add, really, but I think my viewpoint is contradictory to yours.
I don't believe in Free Will at all, for one. I'm a fatalist, take that for what you will. My basing of this lies within the simple fact that the two things which govern our choices, Early Childhood Experiences and Hereditary Traits, we don't get to choose either. They just happen outside of our control. And because those things are outside of our control, and those things govern who we are and what we do, it's (in my opinion) simple to see that we don't really have a choice about anything. Even when presented with a million options, there's only one true choice. The others exist only in the imagination. They're doors that can't be opened. Ever. So that's how I see 'free will'. It doesn't exist. It's a misconception. It's a fantasy, really. In regards to having a soul, a spirit, something beyond pure 'dead' matter. I disagree again. I would love to believe in something greater. I wish I honestly could believe that there's more to us than the atoms that make us up, and that when this mortal coil ends, we keep going as some sort of spiritual being. But I can't. Because it doesn't make sense. I suppose I'm a product of the society driven by science which you described, as frankly I don't believe in much of anything. I refuse to believe in any divine spirit(ironic, given my lack of belief in free will, I know), I don't believe in a soul and I don't believe in anything beyond what I perceive as the truth: We exist for one purpose, and that purpose is to progress. In order to do that we breed, and we invent. So really, that's how I see it. Have kids, benefit humanity in some small way. That's the ticket. I don't think that you ever get to cash in that ticket, but it's nice to have that satisfaction that you've in some small way benefited society. The only real question for me is...what was the first action? In my mind everything that happens is a predetermined reaction to whatever that initial action was. |
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altoecko |
#23 |
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Here's my term paper, good luck.
Here Goes Nothingness What I say here has been said before by others in better words and has probably already been thoroughly refuted by some bureaucrat with an overly large vocabulary and a will to destroy dreams. Kant says that the only way metaphysics are possible is through the system he proposes and he leaves leeway saying that you must destroy his thought or come through it if you ever hope to go into the future of the mind. He was of course destroyed several times over and passed through just as many times I'm sure. The full extent to which he has been used and abused is outside of my reading range currently, I will assume he is horrendously outdated by modern standards of excellence, but still admired for how thorough and beautiful his system is. I will try to use as few passages as I can from him so that others who read this don't require a knowledge of the book to understand the meaning of this paper. Kant made the same mistake most everyone besides Astrophysicists and Science Fiction writers make, that is he doesn't take into full account how brilliant the generations afterwards will be. Sure, there will be billions of men who come after us who are complete and total jack-asses by most meanings of the word but there will be enough men(and women of course) amongst them to make great leaps forward. "Yet the differences are internal as the senses teach, for, notwithstanding their equality and similarity, the left hand cannot be enclosed in the same bounds as the right one (they are not congruent); the glove of one hand cannot be used for another." Kant says this in the First Part of the Prolegomena To Any Future Metaphysics in ยง 13 second paragraph. I added my own emphasis of course because it drives my point home quite a bit. Having not yet established a point, I suppose I should get it out of the way. Just because it works for you and everyone you know every time, does not mean it will work for every one all the time. It doesn't mean it won't work for everyone, it just means that all things holding, it doesn't have to be real. But this has been established by smarter men than I too. I'll go a bit further, just because the glove fits you just right, doesn't mean the glove will fit others. We have gloves that go on both hands these days, they're ambidextrous and sometimes tailor made to fit just your two hands right. What does this have to do with metaphysics? I propose that we should be our own tailors for our existential dealings. Kant says this too, but does not realize the full scope of it. Now, if we want a good firm fitting metaphysics we will have to have it tailored especially to our likings, but most modern day men(yes, yes, I know, women too, but I enjoy the sound of it this way, bear with me) doesn't have the time to do such trivial things so they buy a ready-made ideology from a New York Times Bestseller, something Oprah suggests to them, they had it bred into them by some church, or a plethora of other such means and ends. Now this is sad for the human individual, but it works. Do you know why it works? Because if you force a man into a mold and tell him it is all encompassing, he will believe you, if you do it right. Just as in cults and other brain washing ways a man will not know he is trapped till he is already on the outside or someone shows him the fatal flaw of his ways. Even then he has to believe that what he is seeing is true and real, and we return to Plato. After all these years, we still haven't gotten very far into the mind yet we still try. I should rephrase, we have gotten VERY far into the mind, but we keep traveling deeper seldom at times leaving the essential bread crumbs to get back. I know this all seems like a tangent of an idea, but it will make sense eventually, at least I hope it does. If Kant is to be believe we can not have a true rational psychology, a complete cosmology, or total theology I agree to an extent. We have come so far with our slow gradual steps that we now have the ability to monitor thoughts as they are forming in the brain. Do you realize the implications of this? We can, with the full certainty that modern science allows us, tell where thoughts come from. Kant would be pleased. There's a slight problem though, where my thoughts come from and from where yours come from is not the same. There are a few amalgamations of the brain that do well to show where most of our thoughts come from but the maps are only true for a percent of the population, not a whole. Kant would think it a terrible world to live in, one where the maps you buy of the world around you only work half the time. I'll give it to Kant, perhaps there is no true objectivity if his system is not in place. There is another mistake a lot of men make, they always look for an ultimate answer, THE one truth that pulls everything they've been raving about together. There is no one truth, there are several truths and at times they too are false. Bringing back the maps, a map of Europe will show you how to navigate Europe, but it will not show you Asia. It won't show you every fine little detail of Europe either. Things change it's life I'm sure if we tracked it down far enough we could affirm our flawed logic that there was one ultimate beginning but what good would it do us? It would perhaps end a few religious battles but it wouldn't really enrich the lives we've built for ourselves here and there will always be skeptics. So why is it then that we obsess with these things that are out there? I'm not advocating Pantheism mind you, just keep that in mind. We(and I do say we lightly) philosophers are the loneliest men I know. We create these wonderful little worlds all by ourselves and then invite others to come enjoy it in hopes that they claim it to be the next great truth. There is no harm in building gloves that are ready made to fit most anyone, but we must always be mindful that there are those that the gloves don't fit, but that doesn't mean we should acquit(Jesse Jackson eat your heart out) their ideals. We've built these wondrous worlds that envelop so much of our lives to the point that without culture and society, our brains are practically worthless. Neuroscience has shown that our Cerebral Cortex's are pretty much useless without society. Do you know what that means? I don't fully know what it means but I know that it shows well enough that we have grounded ourselves into the world we've made, for better or worse. Sure, we could all go out and be animals of the wild once more, but we've tasted better lives and we shouldn't go back. Is a rational Psychology possible? I think so, even with Kant's little world intact I think we could make a map of the mind that fit most people. Most mind you, not all. Kant might say that's not a true rational psychology though, I think it's true enough if we made enough maps to cover every variant we've found. It will take a long time, but from there we could map out the true correlations, the few things that do seem to hold steady throughout, but I think it may not be too many things. Chaosmos is something I am not too well versed in but I've been told this is similar to the ideas I preach, that's fine, I'm okay with being the echo of greater minds from time to time, it's hard being authentic anyways. Chaosmos is the idea that the world constantly recreates and destroys order amongst itself. I don't agree with that entirely, but they have a lot of good points. I think WE(not just philosophers this time, but everyone) create the order. The universe is big, and it follows a few fundamental laws that we probably don't know yet, but the variants that can exist are probably mind boggling, but these few laws will probably always exist. Think geometry like Kant did, you can't have a triangle with four sides. It's just how we've defined triangle, we set the rules too rigid, and that's fine. A lot of people need to know there is order in the world or they go insane like Nietzsche. Then there are men(last time I'm going to say women are implied too) like myself who are just fine floating in the abstract. The way I see it, if we look at chaos long enough will notice patterns another way to word the idea is, if you look for something hard enough you'll find it even when it's not there your brain is a wonderful machine after-all and can draw connections for you if you'd like. Who cares if the connections are valid, we've drawn the line, now pick a side. Most of us live privileged lives or completely squalor lives, what I'm trying to say is that some of us are better friends with misery while others know the habits of happiness. That doesn't mean either are wrong, it just means that they don't always come bearing the same outlook on life or the same vocabulary to define themselves. I've created a rational psychology for me that works nearly perfectly and I've also made a wondrous cosmology, though it is severely lacking but if I told it all to you it wouldn't do very well, because it's pretty centered around me not you. Kant's world of thought is centered around him, just like most every other Philosopher's and as we've been over his model may fit a lot of people, but it doesn't fit them all. I believe the next great leap in human conquering of stuff(this includes God/nature/whatever you want to put inside), because that is after-all what we do, will be artificial intelligence. Those few men among us who study every field they can get their hands on, they notice the true patterns but we've all branched off into our own little worlds that to interlink them is a terribly troubling ordeal. If we could link all the branches together, we'd have a wondrous cosmology and psychology. Hell, every field would be greatly benefited, but we should be wary not to create a malevolent God, since that would be what we were essentially making. We conquistadors of life will surely rob ourselves of life once more, we pretty much always have so let's not make the same mistake forever. The fullness of the collective human knowledge is immense and incredible so much so that we must often at times learn the same mistakes constantly before they're pervasive enough in all the fields to where we know better. I'm proud of myself for the fact that it's not until this late into the writing that I mention drugs, but I mention them in the same vain as Artificial Intelligence and those maps I talked about. Some drugs will show you the edges of the map that aren't on the paper, other drugs will just draw a new map altogether. I think it should be up to you to decipher the good from the bad. A friend of mine says that you can't have true free will until you drop acid, I don't agree, but there may be some validity to his statement. Just once in our lives we should all have to look deep into the eyes of chaos if only to show us that there's a pattern if we look for it, but that finding it is a lot harder than we think. Drugs are an easy way to view that Chaos, Astrophysics is another, and at times I think politics is yet another. Drugs are not the answer but for some people they are the tool to get the answer. Kant believed in working towards totality and so do I, for if we don't work as if there is an ultimate answer than there is no much use in our work. We're going from different directions but still we strike at the same problems. Though we may come up with different answers through our different answers we can derive ourselves a better present life. Bringing back the map idea we should decide just how far out we want to map and how far in we should map also. I guess I slightly do agree that we can't have a complete as in absolute forever and always Metaphysics but I believe that we can start small and go out near infinitely. We just need to know where to start or where to stop. I once got into a discussion with classmates about various topics of philosophy and they all kept trying to find the initial starting point of our fallacies. I would warn them that this was a never ending slope but they would not believe me, most every argument ended without deciding much of anything. You as a person and we as a collective must decide where to draw the line because nature and our predecessors did not. I'm not saying draw a line to cut things off like Kant did, I'm saying we should first identify the problem, then decided just how far back and how far forward we wish to go. I can accept forever forward, but not forever back. Once we have established a firm starting point we should work to fix the problem from there. I do hope this image is portrayed well, it is clear in my mind but I worry it is befuddled on the page. Sometimes the line should be drawn at now, fix the problem now, the past is done and cannot be undone, yet. Oh no, I think I'm agreeing with Kant again slightly. The best way to word this argument would be: Though there is no true objectivity or no true absolutes, that does not mean we cannot instill both for the purposes of solving a problem. A changing absolute is not as uncommon as you'd think, a constant variable in one equation is not present in another. We must know where to draw the line. I am mortal and I have not died to my knowledge, so I can not speak on Theology with any great certainty. All I know is that I am here and I will make the best of it. Whatever that means. This paper ended up being much shorter than I thought and a lot more encompassing than I hoped, it is probably a jumble of thoughts and is perhaps terrible but it is my sincere hope that you pulled something useful out of this. For every folly there is a lesson and life will teach the lesson to you an infinite amount of times until you learn it. Your lesson is not my lesson, your Nietzsche is not my Nietzsche, and thank some omnipredicate being your life is not my life. Not everyone is a talented geographer or tailor though, so most have to buy their ideologies pre-made. Don't insult them or belittle them, they did the best they could it's up to those who can graft their own world to help specially tailor the others. You don't have to, because nothing is absolute, but it's just the nice thing to do. I'm young and not nearly as educated as many I have met, but I have an earnest will to try take my arguments with a grain of salt or not, this is what I have to offer you so far. |
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altoecko |
#24 |
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Sorry for killing the topic. D:
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Mattox333 |
#25 |
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I think we all tl;dr'd. <_<
Or maybe no one has anything to add to that. |
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r obhR |
#26 |
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Sorry, alt. I told you I would post a response tomorrow like a month ago. Anyway I spent awhile thinking about that one and basically I've decided I agree.
I don't have a lot else to say, other than why the jab at pantheism?
Ultimately I float around in the abstract as well, though more so just in the sense that I refuse to fall for any dogma. It seems so fucked up to even put a glove on in the first place. To conform to any set of ideas, whether you make them yourself or have others give you a one-size-fits-all... I don't know, I just don't know. When you give yourself a set of rules you put a cap on your thought process, you tell yourself "Yup, I've gone far enough. I am now _____." but you have to do that with the knowledge that either you're limiting yourself, you're putting a final answer on something that we simply cannot answer, or you're going to be getting yourself a new pair of gloves in a few years. When we say our view of reality fits us but it's not for everybody, we're basically admitting that our view of reality is just something we've made up for the sake of comfort when really we have no idea. But then when we say our view of reality fits everybody we're admitting we're closed minded fools. But I still put the glove on like everybody else, otherwise my hand gets cold, y'know? (Have I gone to far with that one now?) I call myself a pantheist when people ask because it's a vague enough way of describing my ever evolving beliefs (I spend a lot of money on gloves but they're all in the same style. Okay I'm just loving the glove thing a little too much now.) and for the most part my system stays the same. It is a vague system, and looking back over this topic I realize I was trying to make two points at once in the original thread and then went on to talk about the subjectivity of the whole matter, and while the connection made sense in my head, I didn't communicate it properly, so I'm going to try again. Before we put meaning to anything, there was nothing. The tree was there before we named it a tree, but it was not a tree then. The rock was there when we were single celled organisms, but it was not a rock, it just was. Just as we were not single celled organisms and the universe was not the universe. When we invented language, when we invented culture, when we invented, well, thought, we created meaning, we created stability, we created reality. Of course we were always aware of trees, but now we were aware that it was, in fact, a tree. This ability to reason and label eventually made us think that we were above nature, as we had forgotten that we were one with nature. It's only natural that people of the past would eventually just find themselves in this place, being much smarter than all the other creatures, and try to come up with some story as to how we got here. They had no knowledge of evolution so they go with something mystical. Christianity just happened to be the one that stuck for the west, and, well, everywhere now. There was a time when Christianity did not distance us from nature... Early folk Christianity, Gnosticism. The stories in the bible were metaphors for your own inner spiritual journey. It just took a power hungry emperor and a few hundred years of popes manipulating the "word of God" to fully transform it into the beast it is today. We have to understand that even if we do not consider ourselves Christians, we have been brought up in a Christian culture based in Christian thought. We consider ourselves outside of nature and all that shit I already talked about. Before our system of thought there were other systems of though, and before those there were nothing. Our system of thought is our entire conception of reality, and it is created with a Christian framework. And even before then, a framework that identifies everything as independent and disconnected as we were not around to view the earth's organisms as they branched off from single celled organisms floating around on a barren planet. We were not around to view the universe as it expanded from a single point. Had we been aware of that, perhaps we would not have called a tree a tree or a rock a rock, perhaps we would not have labeled a thing because we knew that everything was merely an extension of one thing. Perhaps we wouldn't have had words or need for thought and would have been retarded but enlightened. But we did, and that's how we view the world. Now I guess all it comes down to is: Do you believe this force that created everything out of nothing is alive and intelligent or dead and random? Merely from the existence of consciousness and self-awareness, I choose to believe that it is alive and intelligent, or at the very least alive and has found intelligence through the collection of all the thoughts that ever were. For if it were dead and random, well... I guess this is the whole debate with Nihilism, that we are a random occurrence. It's impossible to put to words, but the spirit is just something that feels... real. At some point. At ego death. Whether it be in deep meditation, after ingesting an intense psychedelic, during a near death experience, or, well, whenever. I don't know man, I just don't know. This is the one point I could never twist words around. So I guess here is probably where I've lost a good portion of you. Your loss, have fun being worthless and random. (I'm being a douche, obviously we are all capable of creating our own meaning to life.) If the force is alive, then it probably had a reason for doing this. If it had a reason for doing this, then it probably set things up this way for a reason. We probably developed the way we did because we needed collective pomposity and complex structure to get us where we are. That doesn't mean that we need to continue down this line, as obviously it has reached it's breaking point. Look at where this system of thought has brought us, we're on the brink of disaster in many ways and we're choosing to ignore it. We need a complete mental renovation. I like to think the turning point in consciousness will be 2012 - Mayan calendar, in traditional stoner style. But I'm saying this with the confidence that this controlling force plans on keeping most of us alive, which many may disagree with. Now, I just mentioned a dogma, sorta. I do believe that a lot of religions have tapped into something real, I just don't think they could have possibly grasped the whole picture. Not that I'm claiming to grasp the whole picture. I may as well just start calling this controlling force "God", I'd just been avoiding it before because people tend to think of God in the Christian sense, where as the God I'm talking about is not an old white man, but rather just infinity. Everything and everyone as one. This one point of nothingness that expanded to create everything. Anyway with that said, God clearly put psychedelics here for a reason. Look at the history of psychedelics before the 60s, and then with that said look at the 60s. Forget the backlash that has resulted from them being brought to public eye. Though I do understand what Timothy Leary did that for, and they wouldn't have the attention they have now if it wasn't for that. However they've been given a very negative stigma, they've been treated like narcotics, and people today would likely have more respect for them if it weren't for that. People misused them and abused them (not that I'm innocent of this) and they were dealt a very negative image. Before this happened they were being used quite successfully in psychotherapy and fascinating things were being discovered about them (and actually psychedelic research is legal again for the first time in decades - the whole attitude toward psychedelics has really been shifting lately actually). Before then they were used in religious ceremonies for centuries (Mayans had magic mushrooms, South American natives had Ayahuasca (DMT), Gnostics had Ergot (LSD), Mexican natives had peyote, you get the idea). I know I can be a little, uh, in-your-face about the drug stuff and that probably just reinforces the negative image. I think they're a very important tool to be used for exploring our consciousness, but not a be all and end all, as I think such a thing will always be out of our grasp. Now for somebody who is claiming to admit to the subjectivity of reality and agree with Mitch's essay, that is a lot of objective truths I'm claiming. I try to leave a lot of it open and admit that we'll simply never know a lot of things, but... well... I do think we can get close. Fuck, maybe we could even figure it out, who knows? All I know for sure is that if we're ever going to do it, things need to change. But just think about it, our collective intelligence has been growing at an exponential rate. Four years could be enough to bring on a crucial turning point (I don't think we'll all come to some grand realization on December 21st, 2012 or anything, but I do think it will mark a very subtle turning point in a change that's been happening in our system of thought since it's very beginnings.) and another 1000 years from now we will be at a level of intelligence that our current minds can't even comprehend, so I don't know, part of me thinks an objective truth is out there for us to discover, so I end up thinking about it a lot and getting a lot of ideas that I like. The only thing I really stick to, though, is labeling myself as pantheist. I don't think I'll find myself ever going back and disowning my belief system, but I know that in 20 years I'll have a new glove. I'm sure it'll look a lot like this one, since, well, that's my style... But... Well, you know, time changes things. I don't believe in Free Will at all, for one. I'm a fatalist, take that for what you will. My basing of this lies within the simple fact that the two things which govern our choices, Early Childhood Experiences and Hereditary Traits, we don't get to choose either. They just happen outside of our control. These are the things I'm talking about. I know you'll never go completely beyond them, but in becoming truly aware of them you can think outside of them. Saying you can't help but think the way you do is the defeatist attitude that's programmed in all of us. And because those things are outside of our control, and those things govern who we are and what we do, it's (in my opinion) simple to see that we don't really have a choice about anything. Even when presented with a million options, there's only one true choice. The others exist only in the imagination. They're doors that can't be opened. Ever.What? Why not? You can concieve of those doors, can you not? What makes you think you can't go through them? You should of course stick to yourself, and go with whatever options suit you, but sometimes we can make the wrong choice, or the better choice... So really, that's how I see it. Have kids, benefit humanity in some small way. That's the ticket. I don't think that you ever get to cash in that ticket, but it's nice to have that satisfaction that you've in some small way benefited society.Ultimately I agree. All you really need to do is play your role in continuing evolution. I don't think we're rewarded or anything though, but it's nice to play a part. |
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altoecko |
#27 |
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I think our reward is what we take for ourselves, we can have a small reward or a large one but I think we ultimately get to choose. The beauty of our brain
is that it can be programmed so diversely. If you live the same way your whole life it will be hard to program something different in, but it's not
impossible, just improbable. Now, I don't get to choose quite a lot of things obviously, but I still do get to choose things. We don't have ultimate
free will, but we have a few choices. I view it much the same as how we eventually mastered flight, we've always been possible to do these things, but
it's not until we know the rules that we can actually harness that power for ourselves. I just don't like Pantheism because it doesn't believe in
the individual soul, it's all about a group collective. I'll be honest, when I picture everything(and I mean everything I know of in reality) I
picture this linear line that we travel on and the closer you are to the line the more you're enmeshed in collective unconscious, some minds are too weak
for it and crumble under it's pressures and some minds avoid it completely, but these either come back with some spiritual truth or they're just
insane, and sometimes even if they have a new truth, they're still considered insane. I don't where the edge is, but I don't want to go over it,
but i want to get damn close to it, just once. I'm sure i have at some point, but I'd like to be consciously aware of it.
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Mattox333 |
#28 |
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Wall of text @_@. But yeah, I can see wanting to see the edge.
And my point, Rob, was that despite having so many options, due to our influences and traits, there's only one we would ever choose. The rest exist only in the imagination. A "what if" scenario. Everything else is linear because that's how we function. How we change is essentially other people's traits mixing with ours, becoming influences, and we can either accept or reject those. If we have any free will at all, maybe that's it. But even then: we accept or we reject based on those same influences, and those influences are what govern everything else, so again, there's only ever one real option. |
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r obhR |
Drugs: My greatest moment and my greatest downfall. Always and forever. | #29 |
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I put too much importance on drugs.
I spent the last 5 months absolutely binging on psychedelics. I was in a crisis situation and I desperately needed to get to the bottom of my mind. It was a life chaning experience and I feel better now than I ever have, but I realized that toward the end I was ignoring the fact that the drugs had become one of my biggest problems. I admit I have a drug problem, but I do not admit that psychedelics are in any way bad by themselves. I just took it a little too far, but it was my fault, not the drugs. I hit bottom when I almost killed myself with 2CI. I felt my soul ripped from my body, my bones rattling throughout the ordeal. It was the most horrifying thing I have ever experienced but also one of the most important, and I'm glad I experienced it. I can't stress enough that true enlightenment comes through decades of mastering meditation. Drugs are a shortcut to certain states but you can never go all the way with them because they're basically a testiment to one's lack of patience in and of themselves. I stand by a lot of what I said, but a lot of what I said was also said thinking that they were a lot less harmful to me than I was letting them become. I have refined my opinions a lot. I have so much more to say and to reclarify. I don't know how many people still come here. I don't know if it's even worth it. If people want to continue this discussion just say so and I'll try to come back with a different approach. Thank you for bearing with me, all of you. I've had some very sketchy moments at this board. I'm sure you've all worried about me and I'm sorry. The one thing I will always stand by, no matter how many of my other points are nailed to the wall: I love you all. I love everybody and so do you. It's the most natural state of being, you just need to remember. I'm sorry I caused many people pain in the past. In my teenage years my outlook was much more nihilistic, angry, hostile... I will always be sarcastic, I will always make fun of you, but I never think I'm better than you. And I never have. (The sn "really awesome" was really just me making fun of myself for appearing egotistical. i thought it would make people understand but it didn't. the last thing i want is to project that i think i'm better than you.)
Last Edited By: r obhR 11/11/08 09:26:24.
Edited 2 times.
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thehwdid |
#30 |
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Clearly you have arrived at a fantastic place. I see in your post now a wisdom that, no offense, was not evident in your earlier posts. I would like to join
this conversation and continue it. Based on what you have just said, I believe you have achieved enlightenment, and it is the path that you chose that got you
there-- even though you may not be feeling this, I feel it is important to say that you should not feel ashamed of your past, because it is what got you here.
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woolyman69 |
#31 |
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yeah hw spoke some truth right there.
i see this happening with a lot of people as they come to the realization that "I love everybody and so do you. It's the most natural state of being, you just need to remember." i am still in this process of reaching enlightenment, and i am grateful for the pearls along the way that enlighten me as i travel the road of life. just wanted to say i like the direction this thread is heading in. keep it up, i may just be inspired to post more than 5 sentences one of these days. |
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Mattox333 |
#32 |
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I find that to be an interesting premise.
Mostly because I'm a cynical misanthrope. Frankly, I've found that I generally hate everyone by default until proven otherwise. Honestly, I can't help but wonder if somehow all those drugs screwed with something in your head to allow for such a state of "enlightenment". |
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altoecko |
#33 |
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Drugs could very easily help to rewire his neural pathways and draw bit odder connections. I mean, a lot of Psychoactive's fuck with the Hippocampus so I
wouldn't rule out the possibility that drugs have made his views what they are today. I still don't think anyone here has reached
"enlightenment" but I don't doubt that Rob is much closer to that then he was before. Drugs are a wonderful tool, if you use them properly,
otherwise they're a terrible crutch. So Rob, do you still partake in party favors or are you going cold turkey right now?
Matt - If you hate everyone from the start that may be a physiological thing in your brain. Are your father and mother cynics? If so probability would lead me to believe that you're far more inclined to be hard-wired that way yourself. Our worldviews are either burned into us by the world or set in us by our parents, neither are stand alone problems or are they permanent. Trust starts with acceptance that people are fundamentally flawed, that lot of us try to be otherwise, and ultimately we're all just as fucked up, but in various different ways. |
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Mattox333 |
#34 |
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No, actually. My Dad chastises me quite frequently for expressing my distaste for things. I just...don't like people. I think the world would be a better
place without them altogether. I may have mentioned this before, but for my Social Studies final exam my paper was on how we could solve all the world's
problems by eliminating humanity from the picture.
As for it being burned into me, I'd say in some way this place we're gathered at now holds a large portion of definitive factors. But it seems unlikely that I became a misanthrope because of my time here. |
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altoecko |
#35 |
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I didn't mean here as in BAI I meant just the world in general. A lot of humans are vile creatures I won't contest that, but I hope you realize there
are enough good and decent human beings out there for you to at least try and help solve all these problems we have without wiping us out.
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thehwdid |
#36 |
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Matt, it is unfortunate that that is you world view at this time, and I hope that one day you will see the inherent contradictions of that line of thinking and
how destructive (both to self and others) it is.
The notions of good and evil are relative, and thus require a perspective point. To one person, Matt's line of thinking is evil, to another, mine is. There is no universe barometer of good and evil though. I believe that it is impossible to call anything, let alone humans as evil or vile (EVILE?!) or the opposite. That position is based solely on the observer's perspective and is in no way a law. I believe that part of achieving enlightenment is the realization, acceptance, and embracement if this.
Last Edited By: thehwdid 11/25/08 21:41:40.
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Mattox333 |
#37 |
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Of course it's a subjective stantpoint. That goes without saying. However, I don't see how you find it contradictory. To suggest it ironically
contradicts your statement of subjectivity, seeing as it implies your views are somehow more correct than mine.
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r obhR |
#38 |
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I'm a cynical misanthrope. Frankly, I've found that I generally hate everyone by default until proven otherwise. I used to be that way too until I found drugs. Honestly, I can't help but wonder if somehow all those drugs screwed with something in your head to allow for such a state of "enlightenment". Yes. |
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Ikaporamee |
#39 |
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Mattox333 wrote: I, too, don't believe in Free Will, but for a different reason. I see the lack of Free Will as a 'result' of the fact that the universe's physics are, as far as we know, governed by a set of defined rules and that things happen according to this set of rules. Therefore, everything that happens in your brain happens for a physical reason that cannot be avoided. Apologies for the horrible wording of this, I've been trying to come up with a better way to word the whole thing and I just can't seem to do it. ![]() |
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Mattox333 |
#40 |
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Ikaporamee wrote: Isn't that exactly what I said? Or did I use my experience argument? There's a lot of ways you can argue that "Free Will" is a misconception at best.
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